3:00 PM Guthrie: You've been invited to this chat room!
chris has joined
3:01 PM me: how's it going chris?
3:02 PM chris: GUTRH13
what's a U ?
Guthrie: wait whats a Y, coz you have seecoy green
3:03 PM me: :)
so u d00dz wanna talk about the event
me: stuff leading up to it
thots about it
after the fact
3:04 PM Guthrie: sure
i suppose we should start with talking about rafael + where the event came from/what it is?
should you ask us a question?
me: i think that's a good place
3:05 PM and ya, go for it
no need for me to lead
3:06 PM chris: http://bien-pensant.com/?p=181
you read this nicholas?
3:07 PM me: o ya
Guthrie: i dont like the "minor league" analogy :\
Guthrie: i like rafael's comment about find and replacing it w "special olympics"
3:08 PM :)
me: i commented on it already
that was rly good
Guthrie: oo i wanna read your comment
me: a couple ppl i've talked to said that the convo should just end there...
chris: it would seem strange to me to talk BYOB
reference any of this stuff
no ur absolutely rite
chris: otherwise maybe it's just a fluff piece?
3:09 PM i'm trying to find
3:10 PM me: at the bottom
no, i think it would be a good opportunity to discuss some of this stuff
as a kind of response, or continuation of some of the critiques/responses thus far
3:11 PM chris: or even to allude to
but candidly not make pretense at having it all figured out
3:12 PM which i certainly don't
do u guys wanna talk about how the readings of BYOB in NYC mite have been different from LA
3:16 PM or would u rather comment on that BYOB means to u as organizers
Guthrie: seems like any nyc la comparisons would be speculation as we weren't there
tho we could throw some out there :)
chris: yeah- maybe it would be good to talk to artie
about the differences
3:17 PM since he was in nyc
and is articulate
Guthrie: maybe he can get in on this chat?
me: i know he said he wanted to be included
invite him in
Artie has joined
me: heya artie
3:18 PM i think you should start with some general questions
just to get that going
3:19 PM me: kewl
3:20 PM Guthrie: chris i feel like u gotta kick it off as it was you who set it in motion
i think its interesting that this was pretty grass roots, no real institutional support
chris: i like that BYOB LA was in a school gallery
3:21 PM chris: as opposed to some "for profit" space
but I don't want to talk about that very much
chris: it was just leveraging the access of grad school to be a wider opportunity for others
a meeting palce
me: around a community
3:22 PM me: rite, these are interesting issues that i think are under-addressed, but if u don't wanna talk about it that's kewl...
chris: yeah- I recognize that there is a marked lack of 'writing about what we are doing'
but at the same time
3:23 PM me: well... i think that the article actually really purposefully neglects a lot of peoplel/writings
chris: i think the idea of BYOB implies a sort of communal event
chris: first and foremost
well... I'll speak for me then only about writing
I could be writing more
and I'm not opposed to it
- it's just hard
3:24 PM and somewhat 'bare' feeling
3:25 PM chris: but the desire on all participants parts- whether spectator, critic, writer, artist, participant etc is to somehow make it plain
that something significant is happening
right here and right now
attendance at these things are really quite large
it's in part due to sheer numbers
of artists invited
3:26 PM something else is there
I think that some of it is about the recognition that these things are coming offline and into space
or into a afk-forum
3:27 PM i mean that was one of the really exciting things for me
people standing around their gear, sharing their process, making linkages between practices
3:29 PM chris: "the content and quality of work shown in such exhibitions is relatively superfluous to the political stance encompassing it. Most important here is the gesture that - perhaps in the face of web-based social networking-physical meet-ups and community building are vital as ever."
chris: on her post
3:30 PM me: yayaya
Artie: ok cool I've just caught up on everything, finished reading
sorry to derail, continue
me: does karen's comment have any kind of resonance w/ u guys?
3:33 PM Artie: Karen articulated pretty much exactly how I felt about both NY and LA--in the type of environment that BYOB sets up it's almost impossible for any single work to really stand out
3:34 PM Artie: very similar to certain types of internet exhibition actually; or at least, a similar difficulty in finding first one thing among many, and then finding any sort of meaning within that one thing
Guthrie: LA was one of the more relaxed and fun openings i've been to... maybe because the lights in the gallery weren't on... no institutional pressure... community
3:35 PM me: i think that to bring a DIY premise into a space that otherwise would be really composed and over curated makes for a really nice social space to inhabit....
me: or not "nice" but vibrant, and/or enthralling
3:36 PM Artie: someone I presented some of the documentation to (from NY, but this also applies to LA) dismissed the event as "party art"
which I would disagree with
not "party art"
though certainly some of it was
but absolutely an exhibition that we engage with as a party
even in the set-up phase
artists have 2-3 hours at most to set up, no organization
3:37 PM Artie: I'm wondering how you guys might have responded to that accusation
3:38 PM or maybe if this has been a frequent problem when many artists active on the Internet get together
this weekend Seecoy told me about all the critique of the Internet Sleepover
3:39 PM Guthrie: yea
3:40 PM Artie: heh
we're bouncing back
Artie: sry nich I hope I didn't derail your intentions just now
chris: you should just put this in the thing
me: no d00d, this is a conversation, i don't wanna moderate :)
chris: that being interrupted in real life
beats screen interruptions
3:41 PM Artie: if anyone asks this discussion happened on a group of computers in the same room
im sitting in a room, much like the room your sitting in now
3:42 PM chris: is it all ultimately about the human need for physical
chris: the actual physical, tangible gathering
i see these as sharing an overlapping relevance to the dump.fm/irl show
3:43 PM chris: i know they're different
but... both are about providing a real site
for gathering physically
3:44 PM which doesn't seem so odd
which explains why success seems to be measured in the 'gathering' and not the work surveyed
formalist problems can be addressed on a continuing individual basis
3:45 PM (and some works did do it better than others)
chris: but ultimately "BYOB" implies not just an organizational imperative to pull something like this off
but the notion of a somewhat impromptu gathering
3:46 PM of like minded creators
i mean we had you, nicholas, fly in from colorado
artie drive up
from san diego
and sf kids carpool down
chris: it was awesome
sassoon from vancouver
3:47 PM Artie: and maybe a trend, related to being in this sort of Post-Internet phase
looking past just the Internet
things like Dual Sites &c. too
Guthrie: it's definitely not "party art" (though every opening is a party)... I think people there could feel the vibe of this DIY global corporation/chain "Bring Your Own Beamer" spreading from city to city - it mimics the internet
3:48 PM me: ya, i agree, the linkages between sites, and then between influencing ppl IRL makes for a nice analogy for how social linkages happen online
Guthrie: at some point someone at the show tapped me on the shoulder and said "i dont know what the rules at these sort of things are, but could you move, because I was trying to watch that" (i was standing in front of a projector)
3:49 PM me: this is awesome
3:50 PM that someone asked u that
3:51 PM but do u think that the critiques about BYOB are coming from a curatorial standpoint or something?
Artie: So I guess a lot of the language we've used has been kind of like "it was cool, it's interesting to see what happens when people come together, when people who have developed their web presences more than their space considerations have to think about installation," but I guess does BYOB itself--going back to Karen's comment--innately propose anything politically or organizationally, or are these things we associate with it more because of associations drawn between some of the artists showing?
3:52 PM me: chris/guthrie?
3:53 PM Artie: heh
coming together facilitates conversation
which then translates to consideration
and then informs working
3:54 PM working becomes making
and making becomes art
i don't need to make a distinction between working and making (maybe)
3:55 PM chris: writing falls under "conversation, translation, consideration and working"
so maybe the distinction is ok
if there was no coming together
we wouldn't be having this conversation
nor would there be writing happening
chris: on the part of those who have weighed in so far
Artie: like for instance
3:56 PM just after BYOB NY, I think one of the more interesting comments
came from Brad's Minor League essay
"To go through, person by person, the full list of participants in a BYOB exhibition would reveal a great diversity of methods and interests. Because this is a generation largely unwilling to concretely contextualize themselves through artist statements or text of any kind, the lowest common denominators of their mutual existence (youth, cultural fluency and social relations) remain the unstated bonds that tie artists of often greatly differing interests together."
Artie: which I feel like is something that needs a kind of physical conversation to make readily readily apparent
3:57 PM me: ya, but there are our own texts, there is a trace that happens through our online interaction than can also be readable
3:58 PM chris: yeah, but some are more vocal than others
me: that's true
Artie: oh I copied maybe more than was necessary
chris: you write, nicholas,
but for many it's just an occasional interview
Artie: the essential point I think is the divergence in practices
which is actually really important
Artie: if there was a "house style" for the Internet we wouldn't be doing it right
3:59 PM Artie: but still, when you consider that variety, the organizing principle of artists active on the Internet becomes and insanely large category
me: re:me writing, i offered in a comment earlier that a part of growing this dialog is by talking with one another
Artie: Seecoy I think you mentioned this weekend how "everyone used to know each other," or maybe just someone from even earlier told you that
4:00 PM Guthrie: jmb
4:01 PM still thinking about 'diversity of methods and interests'... though there are 'factions'... and the internet art world is definitely too big to be a coherent community anymore... so what is it now? is it like a place ?
4:02 PM Artie: I feel like it's very much like a place
4:03 PM Tumblr is totally its own community versus Reddit versus dump
though there are obvious overlaps
Artie: People stealing images from the Tumblr crowd to send to Dump like scavengers of old
Artie: stormin the gates
4:04 PM me: but then how does/did BYOB facilitate that?
make these things converge?
Guthrie: it was cool that the byob didn't really need to be "curated" because we just invited everyone we knew of
me: that i think is one way
4:06 PM chris: there is a desire to contextualize that is felt very strongly by some. I know that in part is a result of an engagement with history, stylistic movements and cultural forces. It could be fair to say that BYOB curatorial strategy is simply "who are my friends in this place that make art that ends up in a similar place as mine?"
Artie: I'd call that a fair assessment
chris: but it seemed in line with what guthrie said
4:07 PM Guthrie: beamable artists
chris: and i don't know what i mean by 'cultural forces'
4:08 PM Artie: but is there a self-introspection or criticality? Like, I suppose, is there anyone you guys thought of but didn't consider because you were like "Ugh, no way, they're so bad" even if they're active in the same space?
chris: not quite like that
chris: that I was like
4:09 PM yeah,,,, only so many slots
but it was a pretty wide net
that was cast
Guthrie: we were scared about not having enough power to power all the projectors but other than that i would've been down with twice as many artists no matter what the quality
chris: yeah- power was the real issue
Artie: guys, bummer but I have to run, I'm late for a meeting with Lev
4:10 PM ttys <3
chris: bye !
chris: thx for hanging
Artie: thx for includin'
Artie has left
Guthrie: surprisingly few internet artists in LA given the size of the city and art scene here - so many people came from other places - though we also invited a good amount of non-net ppl
chris: looking at documentation, I'm wishing we had of had lots more
4:11 PM chris: the whole thing being one
4:12 PM chris: so, yeah.
brings up the issues
that people are talking about in some post-show writing... once you get past the novelty of lots of projectors in a room
4:13 PM and it being a fun gathering
chris: what really do you have? which is why formal questions arise
me: there seems to me to be this amazing thing that happened in the space where you started to realize how people were actually thinking very similar things but going through different approaches
Guthrie: wait elaborate on that sentence nich
me: i guess did u guys see this sense of relatedness amongst the ppl invited?
4:14 PM like did u see ppl talking w/ one another, even if not near each other
or maybe ya, i got over the kind of formal things quickly, because i was included, but maybe that doesn't translate as quickly to audience members or observers
or to academics
4:16 PM chris: well, relatedness could be addressed independent from the installation/exhibit
if the work is publicly available
and watchable- people could have that conversation
4:17 PM chris: the need for contextualization is so strong in a theoretical art conversation that so desperately wants to attach meaning to everything
4:18 PM that it can't rest
while meaning naturally accrues
chris: it's like- post every cafe get together in paris amongst artists of early movements they all sat down and historicized themselves
4:19 PM and asking "what does it all mean???!"
is what they did, right??
rite, there seems to be an urgency to define, when things are still so much in development
4:20 PM it's only after 10-15 years that we can see/comment/critique early netart
through the lens of the info that we have now, and seeing how it fits within a larger scope of society/tradition/etc.
4:21 PM BUT we are having these events NOW, and thinking about them a a critical space can also provide some insights for l8r
chris: i think it's a worthwhile thing to be doing
and I welcome it
but wasn't byob mostly fun?
chris: but I also think that someone needs to organize the thing that starts the talking
and the thing itself
4:22 PM WAS FUN!
Guthrie: is it a translation for the offline audience?
me: i think so
chris: maybe yeah.
me: i think that was what my question to brad was addressing
4:23 PM or does everything that happens in white cubes have to be able to be absolved within a market structure
4:25 PM chris: guthrie
about the idea
of doing it in the desert
(or at the beach was a thought I had had)
Guthrie: that was rafael's idea actually
Guthrie: that would be nice
beach would be great too
i like the beach idea
a bonfire of
all pointing out
Guthrie: what is it about beamers? they have such charisma...
4:26 PM chris: it's fire in a box
Guthrie: is it that projections are immaterial?
chris: bouncing off mirrors
Guthrie: ah! fire in a box definitely
but they're so cute, too
4:27 PM they look like those robots from Batteries Not Included
i feel like this conversation is kind of emblematic of how BYOBs happen
4:28 PM Guthrie: its interesting that so many artists could find or had beamers
i know a lot of them were borrowed
a lot from schools, friends
one artist (fernando) was selling his beamer at the show
4:29 PM chris: "i feel like this conversation is kind of emblematic of how BYOBs happen" -- yeah, and that's good I think
i've been thinking lately about hobby art
chris: (different topic though)
4:30 PM me: well i think there is a relationship between what one can do with the means they have available and how this facilitates and in-depth convo
4:31 PM like having a limitation still creates a diversity of work/interpretations
and seeing how these things move off of PCs and screens makes for an interesting insight into how ppl work together
like i don't think that i saw one instance of someone being like, I RLY NEED THIS SPACE, or something like that
4:32 PM Guthrie: hehe
chris: yeah, but they also were pretty conventional
even in doing things obliquely
all quite conservative moves in that regard
chris: which was just 'ok'
4:33 PM which is why I still really think that the conversation
could be about what was shown
but I think of it more as who showed up
4:34 PM me: ya
chris: " While I think that the conversation
could be about what was shown
- I think of it more as "who showed up"
me: and the excitement of the participants
the enthusiasm of the event was something that was so rewarding
4:35 PM me: made me totally feel that "amateur"-ish quality of 'im doing this cuz i love it"
chris: and as this type of activity continues to happen
it will become more rigorous as a whole
4:36 PM chris: but I hate to cut off enjoyment for the intellectualist gaze
chris: *plain enjoyment
me: i know whut u mean
there can b revelry as well
4:38 PM chris: i welcome a more intellectual approach though
the best stuff appeases all parties
like a film by jacques tati or something
4:39 PM Guthrie: im having trouble getting too critical on byob
4:40 PM chris: me too
Guthrie: to me it was mostly fun
Guthrie: and a community thing
Guthrie: i think the real deal happens online for many of the participants
4:41 PM chris: that says it all quite succinctly
i mean clearly
Guthrie: and i think most of the attendees were aware of this but got something out of it anyway
chris: one-night only
me: i think that this is a great point
4:42 PM the activity in itself shouldn't be void of critique, but it's not necessary in the moment
4:59 PM Guthrie: do internet artists really want to be 'successful' in the traditional art way as brad suggests in his article? like, younger ones? i mean i know parker has turned his desire for success into part of his thing, the way a rapper does
5:00 PM chris: i think regardless of success or fame
each desires some sort of acceptance/consideration/belonging
belonging is key
i talked about this a lot w/ others there
5:01 PM me: and this is what was amazing about it
was that sense of being within the community, knowing that there was a shared dialog happening in the room that didn't need to be fleshed out or over-stipulated
5:02 PM chris: yeah- that you didn't have to catch up the uninitiated
that people had been spending time with things long enough and closely enough
that all that
could just be
me: in an already known context
5:03 PM a common context that brad stipulates
5:04 PM chris: well... people have different motives overall
there is room for each
i was excited to reach out to LA
chris: and meet those in the general vicinity
chris: miss all the SF kids
5:05 PM Guthrie: what is that bond though?
we're just into the net?
more than others are?
5:06 PM me: idk, that bond felt very real in the moment of being in the space w/ everyone
chris: and that's enough
in my opinion
for a one-night event
chris: it becomes a launch pad to something greater
5:07 PM (which could very well be all the writing - AND CONVERSATIONS... that happen because of it)
i think this mite be a good ending point
5:08 PM to just leave some of these questions opened
me: and to offer that some of the strength of events like BYOB comes from the continue conversation
Guthrie: * sorry was peeing, but agree with nich abt real bond feeling at byob :)
5:09 PM chris: agreed
5:10 PM Guthrie: :D