3:00 PM Guthrie: You've been invited to this chat room! chris has joined Guthrie: hi! me: hey! chris: hey 3:01 PM me: how's it going chris? chris: good :^) you ? Guthrie: 533C0Y me: goood 3:02 PM chris: GUTRH13 what's a U ? Guthrie: wait whats a Y, coz you have seecoy green 7? chris: 7 Guthrie: k 3:03 PM me: :) so u d00dz wanna talk about the event chris: yeah me: stuff leading up to it thots about it after the fact 3:04 PM Guthrie: sure i suppose we should start with talking about rafael + where the event came from/what it is? should you ask us a question? me: i think that's a good place 3:05 PM and ya, go for it no need for me to lead Guthrie: hehe 3:06 PM chris: http://bien-pensant.com/?p=181 you read this nicholas? 3:07 PM me: o ya Guthrie: i dont like the "minor league" analogy :\ me: ya Guthrie: i like rafael's comment about find and replacing it w "special olympics" 3:08 PM :) me: i commented on it already ya that was rly good Guthrie: oo i wanna read your comment me: a couple ppl i've talked to said that the convo should just end there... chris: it would seem strange to me to talk BYOB and not reference any of this stuff me: ya no ur absolutely rite chris: otherwise maybe it's just a fluff piece? 3:09 PM i'm trying to find your comment 3:10 PM me: at the bottom no, i think it would be a good opportunity to discuss some of this stuff as a kind of response, or continuation of some of the critiques/responses thus far 3:11 PM chris: or even to allude to but candidly not make pretense at having it all figured out 3:12 PM which i certainly don't me: rite yes do u guys wanna talk about how the readings of BYOB in NYC mite have been different from LA 3:16 PM or would u rather comment on that BYOB means to u as organizers Guthrie: seems like any nyc la comparisons would be speculation as we weren't there tho we could throw some out there :) chris: yeah- maybe it would be good to talk to artie about the differences 3:17 PM since he was in nyc and la and is articulate Guthrie: maybe he can get in on this chat? me: ya totz chris: seriously me: i know he said he wanted to be included invite him in Artie has joined Guthrie: hi! me: heya artie chris: heyyyy on computer? 3:18 PM i think you should start with some general questions nicholas just to get that going warmup 3:19 PM me: kewl 3:20 PM Guthrie: chris i feel like u gotta kick it off as it was you who set it in motion i think its interesting that this was pretty grass roots, no real institutional support chris: i like that BYOB LA was in a school gallery Guthrie: yes 3:21 PM chris: as opposed to some "for profit" space but I don't want to talk about that very much Guthrie: k me: k chris: it was just leveraging the access of grad school to be a wider opportunity for others to gather a site a meeting palce me: around a community chris: place 3:22 PM me: rite, these are interesting issues that i think are under-addressed, but if u don't wanna talk about it that's kewl... chris: yeah- I recognize that there is a marked lack of 'writing about what we are doing' but at the same time 3:23 PM me: well... i think that the article actually really purposefully neglects a lot of peoplel/writings chris: i think the idea of BYOB implies a sort of communal event me: rite chris: first and foremost well... I'll speak for me then only about writing I could be writing more and I'm not opposed to it - it's just hard 3:24 PM and somewhat 'bare' feeling me: ya 3:25 PM chris: but the desire on all participants parts- whether spectator, critic, writer, artist, participant etc is to somehow make it plain that something significant is happening right here and right now attendance at these things are really quite large it's in part due to sheer numbers of artists invited but also... 3:26 PM something else is there me: rite I think that some of it is about the recognition that these things are coming offline and into space or into a afk-forum 3:27 PM i mean that was one of the really exciting things for me to see people standing around their gear, sharing their process, making linkages between practices 3:29 PM chris: "the content and quality of work shown in such exhibitions is relatively superfluous to the political stance encompassing it. Most important here is the gesture that - perhaps in the face of web-based social networking-physical meet-ups and community building are vital as ever." -karen's comment me: ya chris: on her post 3:30 PM me: yayaya Guthrie: ya Artie: ok cool I've just caught up on everything, finished reading sorry to derail, continue me: does karen's comment have any kind of resonance w/ u guys? chris: yes Artie: absolutely 3:33 PM Artie: Karen articulated pretty much exactly how I felt about both NY and LA--in the type of environment that BYOB sets up it's almost impossible for any single work to really stand out me: rite 3:34 PM Artie: very similar to certain types of internet exhibition actually; or at least, a similar difficulty in finding first one thing among many, and then finding any sort of meaning within that one thing Guthrie: LA was one of the more relaxed and fun openings i've been to... maybe because the lights in the gallery weren't on... no institutional pressure... community 3:35 PM me: i think that to bring a DIY premise into a space that otherwise would be really composed and over curated makes for a really nice social space to inhabit.... Guthrie: totally me: or not "nice" but vibrant, and/or enthralling 3:36 PM Artie: someone I presented some of the documentation to (from NY, but this also applies to LA) dismissed the event as "party art" which I would disagree with not "party art" though certainly some of it was but absolutely an exhibition that we engage with as a party even in the set-up phase artists have 2-3 hours at most to set up, no organization me: rite 3:37 PM Artie: I'm wondering how you guys might have responded to that accusation 3:38 PM or maybe if this has been a frequent problem when many artists active on the Internet get together this weekend Seecoy told me about all the critique of the Internet Sleepover being similar 3:39 PM Guthrie: yea not sure! brb 3:40 PM Artie: heh me: :) chris: hehe- we're bouncing back and forth Artie: sry nich I hope I didn't derail your intentions just now chris: you should just put this in the thing me: no d00d, this is a conversation, i don't wanna moderate :) chris: that being interrupted in real life beats screen interruptions every day me: yes 3:41 PM Artie: if anyone asks this discussion happened on a group of computers in the same room me: :) im sitting in a room, much like the room your sitting in now 3:42 PM chris: is it all ultimately about the human need for physical me: rite chris: the actual physical, tangible gathering i see these as sharing an overlapping relevance to the dump.fm/irl show me: ya 3:43 PM chris: i know they're different but... both are about providing a real site for gathering physically 3:44 PM which doesn't seem so odd which explains why success seems to be measured in the 'gathering' and not the work surveyed formalist problems can be addressed on a continuing individual basis 3:45 PM (and some works did do it better than others) me: ya chris: but ultimately "BYOB" implies not just an organizational imperative to pull something like this off but the notion of a somewhat impromptu gathering 3:46 PM of like minded creators i mean we had you, nicholas, fly in from colorado artie drive up from san diego and sf kids carpool down me: rite chris: it was awesome sassoon from vancouver etc 3:47 PM Artie: and maybe a trend, related to being in this sort of Post-Internet phase looking past just the Internet things like Dual Sites &c. too Guthrie: it's definitely not "party art" (though every opening is a party)... I think people there could feel the vibe of this DIY global corporation/chain "Bring Your Own Beamer" spreading from city to city - it mimics the internet 3:48 PM me: ya, i agree, the linkages between sites, and then between influencing ppl IRL makes for a nice analogy for how social linkages happen online Guthrie: at some point someone at the show tapped me on the shoulder and said "i dont know what the rules at these sort of things are, but could you move, because I was trying to watch that" (i was standing in front of a projector) 3:49 PM me: this is awesome 3:50 PM that someone asked u that 3:51 PM but do u think that the critiques about BYOB are coming from a curatorial standpoint or something? Artie: So I guess a lot of the language we've used has been kind of like "it was cool, it's interesting to see what happens when people come together, when people who have developed their web presences more than their space considerations have to think about installation," but I guess does BYOB itself--going back to Karen's comment--innately propose anything politically or organizationally, or are these things we associate with it more because of associations drawn between some of the artists showing? 3:52 PM me: chris/guthrie? Guthrie: ummmmm :) 3:53 PM Artie: heh chris: thinking... coming together facilitates conversation which then translates to consideration and then informs working 3:54 PM working becomes making and making becomes art i don't need to make a distinction between working and making (maybe) me: rite 3:55 PM chris: writing falls under "conversation, translation, consideration and working" so maybe the distinction is ok if there was no coming together we wouldn't be having this conversation nor would there be writing happening me: rite Artie: truth chris: on the part of those who have weighed in so far Artie: like for instance 3:56 PM just after BYOB NY, I think one of the more interesting comments came from Brad's Minor League essay "To go through, person by person, the full list of participants in a BYOB exhibition would reveal a great diversity of methods and interests. Because this is a generation largely unwilling to concretely contextualize themselves through artist statements or text of any kind, the lowest common denominators of their mutual existence (youth, cultural fluency and social relations) remain the unstated bonds that tie artists of often greatly differing interests together." Guthrie: hmm Artie: which I feel like is something that needs a kind of physical conversation to make readily readily apparent 3:57 PM me: ya, but there are our own texts, there is a trace that happens through our online interaction than can also be readable 3:58 PM chris: yeah, but some are more vocal than others me: that's true Artie: oh I copied maybe more than was necessary chris: you write, nicholas, but for many it's just an occasional interview Artie: the essential point I think is the divergence in practices which is actually really important Guthrie: yeah me: yes Artie: if there was a "house style" for the Internet we wouldn't be doing it right me: :) 3:59 PM Artie: but still, when you consider that variety, the organizing principle of artists active on the Internet becomes and insanely large category me: re:me writing, i offered in a comment earlier that a part of growing this dialog is by talking with one another Artie: Seecoy I think you mentioned this weekend how "everyone used to know each other," or maybe just someone from even earlier told you that 4:00 PM Guthrie: jmb 4:01 PM still thinking about 'diversity of methods and interests'... though there are 'factions'... and the internet art world is definitely too big to be a coherent community anymore... so what is it now? is it like a place ? 4:02 PM Artie: I feel like it's very much like a place or places 4:03 PM Tumblr is totally its own community versus Reddit versus dump though there are obvious overlaps me: rite Guthrie: ya Artie: People stealing images from the Tumblr crowd to send to Dump like scavengers of old Artie: stormin the gates Guthrie: yea 4:04 PM me: but then how does/did BYOB facilitate that? make these things converge? Guthrie: it was cool that the byob didn't really need to be "curated" because we just invited everyone we knew of me: that i think is one way 4:06 PM chris: there is a desire to contextualize that is felt very strongly by some. I know that in part is a result of an engagement with history, stylistic movements and cultural forces. It could be fair to say that BYOB curatorial strategy is simply "who are my friends in this place that make art that ends up in a similar place as mine?" Artie: I'd call that a fair assessment chris: but it seemed in line with what guthrie said 4:07 PM Guthrie: beamable artists chris: and i don't know what i mean by 'cultural forces' 4:08 PM Artie: but is there a self-introspection or criticality? Like, I suppose, is there anyone you guys thought of but didn't consider because you were like "Ugh, no way, they're so bad" even if they're active in the same space? chris: not quite like that but definitely Artie: yeah chris: that I was like 4:09 PM yeah,,,, only so many slots to fill but it was a pretty wide net that was cast me: rite Guthrie: we were scared about not having enough power to power all the projectors but other than that i would've been down with twice as many artists no matter what the quality chris: yeah- power was the real issue that limited Artie: guys, bummer but I have to run, I'm late for a meeting with Lev 4:10 PM ttys <3 chris: bye ! me: baiii Guthrie: cya chris: thx for hanging Artie: thx for includin' ! Artie has left Guthrie: surprisingly few internet artists in LA given the size of the city and art scene here - so many people came from other places - though we also invited a good amount of non-net ppl chris: looking at documentation, I'm wishing we had of had lots more people Guthrie: yeah 4:11 PM chris: the whole thing being one big light covered walls ceilings floors me: ya 4:12 PM chris: so, yeah. brings up the issues that people are talking about in some post-show writing... once you get past the novelty of lots of projectors in a room 4:13 PM and it being a fun gathering me: ya chris: what really do you have? which is why formal questions arise me: there seems to me to be this amazing thing that happened in the space where you started to realize how people were actually thinking very similar things but going through different approaches Guthrie: wait elaborate on that sentence nich me: i guess did u guys see this sense of relatedness amongst the ppl invited? 4:14 PM like did u see ppl talking w/ one another, even if not near each other or maybe ya, i got over the kind of formal things quickly, because i was included, but maybe that doesn't translate as quickly to audience members or observers or to academics 4:16 PM chris: well, relatedness could be addressed independent from the installation/exhibit if the work is publicly available and watchable- people could have that conversation me: rite 4:17 PM chris: the need for contextualization is so strong in a theoretical art conversation that so desperately wants to attach meaning to everything 4:18 PM that it can't rest while meaning naturally accrues maybe me: rite chris: it's like- post every cafe get together in paris amongst artists of early movements they all sat down and historicized themselves in writing 4:19 PM and asking "what does it all mean???!" which is what they did, right?? hehe me: :) rite, there seems to be an urgency to define, when things are still so much in development 4:20 PM it's only after 10-15 years that we can see/comment/critique early netart through the lens of the info that we have now, and seeing how it fits within a larger scope of society/tradition/etc. 4:21 PM BUT we are having these events NOW, and thinking about them a a critical space can also provide some insights for l8r chris: i think it's a worthwhile thing to be doing and I welcome it Guthrie: yeah but wasn't byob mostly fun? chris: but I also think that someone needs to organize the thing that starts the talking and the thing itself 4:22 PM WAS FUN! Guthrie: is it a translation for the offline audience? me: i think so chris: maybe yeah. me: i think that was what my question to brad was addressing partially 4:23 PM or does everything that happens in white cubes have to be able to be absolved within a market structure 4:25 PM chris: guthrie had talked about the idea of doing it in the desert (or at the beach was a thought I had had) Guthrie: that was rafael's idea actually chris: oh - k Guthrie: that would be nice beach would be great too chris: yeah i like the beach idea a bonfire of beamers all pointing out Guthrie: what is it about beamers? they have such charisma... 4:26 PM chris: it's fire in a box Guthrie: is it that projections are immaterial? chris: bouncing off mirrors Guthrie: ah! fire in a box definitely but they're so cute, too 4:27 PM they look like those robots from Batteries Not Included me: :) i feel like this conversation is kind of emblematic of how BYOBs happen 4:28 PM Guthrie: its interesting that so many artists could find or had beamers i know a lot of them were borrowed a lot from schools, friends one artist (fernando) was selling his beamer at the show me: ya no art no joke 4:29 PM chris: "i feel like this conversation is kind of emblematic of how BYOBs happen" -- yeah, and that's good I think i've been thinking lately about hobby art me: ya? chris: (different topic though) me: :) 4:30 PM me: well i think there is a relationship between what one can do with the means they have available and how this facilitates and in-depth convo 4:31 PM like having a limitation still creates a diversity of work/interpretations and seeing how these things move off of PCs and screens makes for an interesting insight into how ppl work together like i don't think that i saw one instance of someone being like, I RLY NEED THIS SPACE, or something like that 4:32 PM Guthrie: hehe chris: yeah, but they also were pretty conventional even in doing things obliquely all quite conservative moves in that regard me: rite that's true chris: which was just 'ok' 4:33 PM which is why I still really think that the conversation could be about what was shown but I think of it more as who showed up 4:34 PM me: ya chris: " While I think that the conversation could be about what was shown - I think of it more as "who showed up" me: ya Guthrie: ya me: and the excitement of the participants the enthusiasm of the event was something that was so rewarding chris: exactly 4:35 PM me: made me totally feel that "amateur"-ish quality of 'im doing this cuz i love it" chris: and as this type of activity continues to happen it will become more rigorous as a whole me: rite 4:36 PM chris: but I hate to cut off enjoyment for the intellectualist gaze me: :) chris: *plain enjoyment me: i know whut u mean there can b revelry as well 4:38 PM chris: i welcome a more intellectual approach though the best stuff appeases all parties like a film by jacques tati or something 4:39 PM Guthrie: im having trouble getting too critical on byob me: :) 4:40 PM chris: me too Guthrie: to me it was mostly fun me: ya Guthrie: and a community thing me: yes Guthrie: i think the real deal happens online for many of the participants 4:41 PM chris: that says it all quite succinctly me: ya i mean clearly Guthrie: and i think most of the attendees were aware of this but got something out of it anyway me: ya! chris: one-night only me: i think that this is a great point 4:42 PM the activity in itself shouldn't be void of critique, but it's not necessary in the moment [break] 4:59 PM Guthrie: do internet artists really want to be 'successful' in the traditional art way as brad suggests in his article? like, younger ones? i mean i know parker has turned his desire for success into part of his thing, the way a rapper does me: rite 5:00 PM chris: i think regardless of success or fame each desires some sort of acceptance/consideration/belonging me: rite belonging is key i talked about this a lot w/ others there Guthrie: community 5:01 PM me: and this is what was amazing about it about BYOB was that sense of being within the community, knowing that there was a shared dialog happening in the room that didn't need to be fleshed out or over-stipulated 5:02 PM chris: yeah- that you didn't have to catch up the uninitiated that people had been spending time with things long enough and closely enough that all that could just be there me: in an already known context 5:03 PM a common context that brad stipulates 5:04 PM chris: well... people have different motives overall there is room for each i was excited to reach out to LA me: ya chris: and meet those in the general vicinity like you computers club me: ya chris: etc me: :) chris: miss all the SF kids etc me: ya 5:05 PM Guthrie: what is that bond though? we're just into the net? more than others are? :) 5:06 PM me: idk, that bond felt very real in the moment of being in the space w/ everyone chris: and that's enough in my opinion for a one-night event me: ya chris: it becomes a launch pad to something greater 5:07 PM (which could very well be all the writing - AND CONVERSATIONS... that happen because of it) *not shouting hehe me: :) yes totally i think this mite be a good ending point 5:08 PM to just leave some of these questions opened Guthrie: hehe me: and to offer that some of the strength of events like BYOB comes from the continue conversation ya? Guthrie: * sorry was peeing, but agree with nich abt real bond feeling at byob :) 5:09 PM chris: agreed 5:10 PM Guthrie: :D me: kewl :)